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Pension CETV not essential for pension sharing?

  • maggie
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06 Jul 08 #31089 by maggie
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Thanks Nigel -
I thought you couldn't blindly share a pension 50/50 or whatever because the law insists on a CETV valuation in £££££ from the pension scheme being provided at the time the share is negotiated- so you would always know at least what valuation the scheme had put on the pension?
Unless, that is, your legal representatives failed to ensure that the obligatory CETV was provided by the pension scheme,let alone get a proper actuarial valuation.
Could I ask you about sharing final salary schemes that are underfunded - how would underfunding affect the pension scheme's own CETV and should a scaled back CETV be used for pension share negotiations?
Would underfunding make any difference to the BDM express valuation I've had done?

  • Peter@BDM
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06 Jul 08 #31093 by Peter@BDM
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I would like to offer a few comments on this thread, from a rather different perspective to Nigel. There are several issues here, which could be in the way of understanding what is going on.

First, a pension can be shared on capital values or income. If the split is capital based then the valuation arrived at by the scheme is irrelevant, providing the sharing order does not cause financial harm (Nigel’s point). If the split is income based, very few schemes will assist with the required calculations. Therefore, it is necessary to know both the CETV and the method of pension share implementation to calculate the pension rates for each party and the splits required to achieve the objectives; although the actual split will be expressed in terms of the CETV (as a percentage in England, Wales & NI, as a financial amount in Scotland). Incidentally, my guess is that this is what the calculations done in the case of Louise’s husband were about.

Secondly, if some part of the pension value (let’s call it the CETV) is to be disregarded, which is the approach taken under Scottish Law, you would be better off knowing the CETV and the accompanying scheme and member’s details when drafting the order.

For example, Mr A joined started his employment in 1990 when he was eighteen. Three years later, when he married. Ten years later, he and his wife separated. A pension sharing order will be made, but only for the pension value built up over the period of the relationship – the ten years from 1993 to 2003. The approach adopted by Scottish courts is to calculate the proportion of the CETV built up over the relationship, in this case ten years worth. He has been in the same employment for eighteen years, so proportion of the CETV that can be available for sharing is ten eighteenths, or 56%. Or is it? What if (as is often the case) he was not allowed to join the scheme until he was twenty-one? If that is the case, then the percentage of the pension available for sharing is ten fifteens, or 66%.

Clearly, you don’t need to be an actuary to work this out (otherwise I wouldn’t be able to do so), but someone needs to analyse the scheme and understand what the CETV represents, then of course there is Nigel’s point about whether the sharing order is likely to cause financial harm. All lawyers are capable of doing the first part, but I have not yet come across many that can do the second.

By the way, just in case there is some confusion. It is not technically possible to share a pension that is built up after the sharing order is made. Some practitioners advocate exotic beasts called deferred pension sharing orders and even state that some have been made. Most will say that they are not allowed and personally, I shudder to think how a scheme might implement one, even if they accepted the order. By contrast, a pension attachment order attaches a specific percentage of the pension at the member’s retirement and therefore it can include pension entitlement built up after the order is made.

Much of the confusion about pension sharing is the result of poorly presented pension reports, some of which are done by actuaries. Pensions can be complex, the calculations required to value them can be mind boggling for the non-actuary, and I include myself here. Doing a fair and accurate valuation of a pension in a divorce is only part of the job. Presenting the information clearly, so that it can be understood by the clients, their lawyers and the courts is of equal importance but many fair at this final hurdle. As with family lawyers, not all actuaries are the same.

I shall leave Nigel to answer the questions raised by Maggie; I suspect that he will prove my point!

Peter.

  • Louise11
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06 Jul 08 #31100 by Louise11
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Hi all

Phew! Pensions!!! headache material!

I thought a Judge had already ruled you couldnt offset a pension against assets, as a pension is not in play at the time of splitting up, like the asset of a house say? And should be treated as a seperate asset? I thought I had read that somewhere on this internet!

Oh well never mind

My partners former wife had a pension which she denied for 3 years, right at the last minute (FDR) admits to having one. the Judge at the FDR ordered her to provide the CETV value, which she never ever did. Her barrister said and I quote " oh your honour its not worth much! To which the Judge replied " I do not care what you say it is worth, I want the CETV, I! will say whether it is worth anything or not! It still needs to go into the pot!

(I must also point out here there were no other assets to take into account except for pensions.)

She never ever gave the value of her pension her response to anything was " I can't remember who it was with!
So the acturie had to do a report based on the information (work and pensions) provided, which according to the acturie was her pension was worth £7,500 they added together his CETV which was 236k and her shortfall was made into a percentage, which is where her 80% came into play right at the beginning. (the acturie valued his pension to be 400k based on the figure of 236k CETV)

I am going to sort through all the paperwork and find this report from her acturie. The figures quoted above are from memory and therefore may be slightly wrong.

But how they ever got from 80% to 30% for a marriage of 23 years god only knows!
I for one am happy with it though and so is hubby!
But I would love to get my head round how they ever came up with it all.

Kind ones
Louise:S

  • Nigel@BDM
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08 Jul 08 #31427 by Nigel@BDM
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Maggie,

The BDM Express Valuation makes no reduction for under-funding. This is because any under-funded scheme must put a plan in place to remove the under-funding. Further pension in payment cannot be reduced due to under-funding, and there is a national safety-net scheme which provides some insurance if things go really wrong.

CETVs do allow for under-funding because they are transfer values, not values for use in a divorce. And in a transfer you take assets away from the fund, and under-funded schemes don't want leavers taking more than their share of current assets.

If sharing then under-funding will normally be an issue, though it does depend on how the scheme does the sharing. However, for example, for those schemes that force receiving parties to take an external transfer then the CETV used to calculate the transfer will allow for the under-funding and you will be realising the loss by taking the share.

  • maggie
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08 Jul 08 #31438 by maggie
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Morning Nigel - thanks.
None of this is any way criticising - it's the struggle to understand and BDM have pioneered public understanding on pension sharing.
["It's in English - I must be able to understand it"]
However unfit for purpose they are, CETVs are the required valuation method specified in the pension sharing legislation - other/actuarial methods can be rejected by the courts? There's a whole string of regulations to ensure a CETV is there at the point of pension share negotiations - but the crucial information on whether the ex-spouse sharing it will have to transfer their share out [or be offered an internal transfer but only into the AVC money purchase section] seems to only be required in Form P. If there's no Form P - and they seem to be optional - there's no information on what the ex-spouse will be able to do with their share. So, ordinarily the court won't have that information?
The pension sharing legislation allows people to be tricked out of the best pension deals without any advice or information and without their consent.

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08 Jul 08 #31447 by Nigel@BDM
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Maggie,

CETV's are required disclosure in form E's, legislation permits the use of alternative valuations subject as ever to judge's consent.

For our actuarial reports we normally contact the scheme directly to understand their approach to pension sharing, even where a Form P has been obtained.

  • maggie
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08 Jul 08 #31453 by maggie
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As an actuary, do you need the pension member's consent to approach the pension scheme direct for information?
If the member refuses, can the court order the pension scheme to provide the information/ co-operate with the actuary ie override its member's wishes ?
Would a solicitor be able to get "pension credit mode of discharge" information direct from the pension scheme without the member's consent?

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